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				TEV Law Group | 
				
				Gregg Zegarelli, 
				Esq. | 
			 
			
				| 
				Good morning.  Thank you, Gregg, for taking the time to talk.  Why 
				is the "Washington Redskins" trademark registration cancellation an 
				important topic? | 
				At its core, the 
				entire consumer business ecoucture is reputation-based.  
				Trademarks are a fundamental part of the business marketing that 
				transcends the related commercial transactions.  Trademarks 
				can be extremely valuable.  So, for a brand like the 
				"Washington Redskins," the stakes are, of course, very high. 
				This particular trademark, 
				"Washington Redskins" has special social and political 
				components.  Even more so, a "famous" trademark is a 
				special type of brand, described in law as a brand that is 
				widely known through the general consuming public of the United 
				States; that is, if you walk into a supermarket and ask about 
				iPods, Disney and the Washington Redskins.  We're talking 
				about the cancellation of what is probably a "famous" trademark 
				that has been used for generations, based upon, for many, a new social 
				awareness.  | 
			 
			
				| Please summarize the party views.  That is, what was the 
				claim. | 
				The case was 
				brought for cancellation of a registered trademark by five 
				Native Americans, also known as "American Indians."  The 
				U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (the, "USPTO"), by law, 
				cannot register the trademark of a disparaging brand.  The 
				claim was that various brands registered between 1967 and 1990 
				containing the term "Redskins" were disparaging to Native 
				Americans, at the time when registered.  
				 Among other 
				defenses, the owners claimed "laches," which is the legal term 
				for "waiting too long to file a complaint."  The USPTO 
				cancelled the registrations, and it will now presumably be 
				decided on appeal to the 
				judicial system. 
				The
				
				USPTO Opinion is available online at the
				
				USPTO and reproduced on our
				
				website for public convenience.   | 
			 
			
				| I 
				don't quite understand.  You mentioned the USPTO, but 
				appeal to the courts.  Isn't the USPTO a court? | 
				No.  The USPTO 
				is a legislative branch administrative agency of the government.  It is the 
				agency that Congress—which is the legislative branch—established 
				to issue trademark registrations pursuant to the Federal 
				Lanham 
				(Trademark) Act.  It is also the agency that 
				resolves disputes regarding its registrations.  But, it is 
				not a court, and it is not within the judicial branch of the 
				government.  Parties can appeal from the administrative 
				agency into the judicial system. | 
			 
			
				| 
				Well, then, can the USPTO determine all the same issues that a 
				court can determine? | 
				No, again.  The USPTO only determines matters relating to 
				the registration of a trademark.  Courts can determine all 
				issues in a dispute, that is, a superset of issues.  For many cases, the claimant can take action 
				in either the USPTO or the federal courts.  For example, 
				the USPTO cannot grant damages; it only rules on the 
				registration.  Federal Court can hear all issues, for 
				example, including damages claims, as well as injunctions. | 
			 
			
				| You mentioned injunctions.  If the registration is 
				cancelled, then the Washington Redskins must stop using the 
				brand, right? | 
				Actually, no.  
				That is a common misconception about branding and trademarks.  I've 
				taught 
				many courses to attorneys on this issue for many years, and it is confusing to 
				many people, unless you are an intellectual property attorney.  
				 Trademarks are developed by actual usage 
				in the marketplace.  You do not need to 
				register a trademark.  Courts, being the judicial branch of 
				government, protect brands, reputations and the likelihood of 
				market confusion as a matter of
				
				judicial common law in addition to violations of statutes.  
				Bottom line: a "registration" of a trademark with the USPTO is 
				optional. 
				Registering a trademark, pursuant 
				to legislative laws, offers significant benefits, but 
				registration is not required.  Therefore, the 
				cancellation of a registration does not cancel the trademark; it 
				only cancels the "registration" of the trademark.  
				This rule of intellectual property is similar to the rule of 
				real property.  If I give you a deed to land and you accept 
				it, you own the land; recording the deed is actually 
				optional—important for many reasons—but legally optional to own 
				the land. 
				The only 
				way to stop the Washington Redskins from using the "Redskins" brand in the 
				marketplace is by a court order, not by the USPTO.  The 
				USPTO is an 
				administrative agency without that power.  | 
			 
			
				| Why 
				did the claimants take action in the USPTO and not the courts? | 
				That is a matter of 
				litigation strategy not apparent from the record, although some 
				history is in order.  The general question already was 
				litigated in Pro-Football, Inc. v. Harjo, 565 F.3d 880, 
				90 USPQ2d 1593 (D.C. Cir. 2009).  This case of seven years 
				of USPTO litigation involved 
				substantially similar or the same question.  The USPTO 
				cancelled the registrations, the ruling was appealed to the 
				judicial branch, the trial court ruling reversed the USPTO, the 
				case was then appealed to the appellate 
				D.C. Circuit Court and upheld, meaning the registrations 
				continued to be effective.  The record of the proceeding 
				is, as you might expect, complex, but the claimants may have 
				preferred starting with a tribunal at the USPTO that granted a 
				favorable initial result. | 
			 
			
				
				 
				Why is there a disconnect between the USPTO and the court 
				system? | 
				Well, that is a 
				great question.  Technically, there should not be a 
				disconnect.  The appeals process is part of our judicial 
				system, of course.  So, emotions aside, the law remains the same 
				for everyone.  
				Mistakes by lower administrative agencies and courts occur in 
				the regular course of events, and reversals and remands (sending 
				the question back again) are not necessarily unusual. 
				
				 However, that said, my own 
				experience is that the USPTO tends, for better or worse, to have 
				a more limited experiential view of evidence and law.  
				Courts are the ultimate repository for resolving most or all disputes in society 
				and draw upon that broad view.  
				The USPTO has a very narrow scope of view.  Therefore, 
				courts tend to draw on a different experience.  This is 
				part of the system.  Keeping mind that the highly unusual 
				exception aside, all of the attorneys and judges involved in the 
				resolutions are highly educated and trained.  Many of these 
				questions are factually hard questions.  | 
			 
			
				| Wait, 
				Gregg, you're saying it is a hard question?  To call a 
				football team a derogatory term like the "Redskins" is 
				a hard question?   | 
				The pointed 
				question you ask, alone by itself, might be an easy question for 
				a water-cooler conversation.  But that is not all of 
				our facts.  Good judges put the dispute into a context.  
				I often say, "Black and white so easy to say, 
				but judgment rests in shades of the gray."  Good judges, 
				and King Solomon, do not jump to easy conclusions.  We have 
				to step back and consider the context carefully. 
				The easy facts might be if someone, 
				today, tries to register a derogatory term for a sports team.  
				The injured party immediately goes to the USPTO and gets the 
				registration cancelled.  That is an easy one.  You 
				start with a conclusion that the term is derogatory, and there 
				is no offsetting equitable defense of waiting to complain.  
				But let us look around a bit to assess some of the arguments in 
				this case. 
				
				From the view of the owners of the 
				brand, is it reasonable to assume that a national football team 
				wants a ridiculous and weak helmet?  No.  The football team 
				wants a powerful and respected symbol.  The term "Redskins" 
				was intended to cause fear and respect into the opponent. 
				
				Now a very natural knee-jerk 
				reaction is to liken "redskins" with "blackskins."  And, as 
				you can read in the
				
				Opinion, 
				the claimants and the USPTO used the n-word analogy multiple 
				times.   | 
			 
			
				| 
				Please explain some of the "arguments" and "issues" with the 
				derogatory nature of the term.  Isn't this just like using 
				the n-word on helmets? | 
				
				 Maybe, maybe not, but we have to step back a moment.  
				There is a distinction from the rhetoric.  Notice that I 
				cannot even repeat the n-word that is actually used in the 
				analogy in the Opinion.  Some words are so vile as to not 
				use at all unless you must. 
				But, the cultural history of the 
				Native Americans is not the same as African Americans.  American Indians 
				were not introduced into this country or culture as slaves.  
				Derogatory 
				terms relating to African Americans relate back to an old 
				condescending prejudice that the then-powers de facto 
				themselves
				created.  The n-word is an inherently derogatory slave 
				term.  I can't even say it, it is so repulsive.  And, 
				analogies to that term may be so powerful as to prejudice the 
				assessment of the context. 
				Apart from how African Americans 
				were introduced into American culture, it is well-documented 
				that African warriors and the Zulu warriors were 
				just as proud and fierce as the American Indians or the European 
				settlers.  The difference is that American culture was introduced to 
				African Americans as slaves, by gunpowder and law. 
				So, the n-word analogy really does 
				not apply.  A better analogy might be if a football team 
				wants to call themselves the "Blackskinned Zulus," because it 
				uses a color reference in the context of instilling fear and 
				respect.  This is actually a closer analogy. 
				Let us say there are five people in 
				the room, one of whom is a Zulu.  The four non-Zulus find 
				the term one of respect and power, but the Zulu himself is 
				insulted, rather than proud, and believes the term derogatory.  Such as it is 
				for slander and reputation, derogatory terms and ridicule 
				requires some third-party involvement.  Apart from 
				superficial media sound-bites, the legal question is quite 
				harder than it appears superficially. 
				There was a
				
				Seinfeld episode dealing with a barber shop Native American 
				tobacco totem theme.  Apart from the fact that this episode 
				made it through network clearances, I mention it not because of 
				what may be funny scenes to some people (maybe at the expense of 
				others), but to assess the context of intention in light of 
				social stereotypes and social reasonableness of intentions.  
				 
				There are probably a lot of 
				good-person priests who have been cheering at Redskins games for 
				many years without thinking twice about the term as derogatory.  
				However, as the
				
				Opinion points out, the intention of the speaker is not the 
				standard from a legal perspective, only a social and political 
				perspective.  | 
			 
			
				| If the brand was registered as long ago as 1967?  It does 
				seem that the claimants waited a really long time, and certainly 
				after many years of pervasive national football seasons. | 
				Branding is more 
				important now because of the pervasive nature of communications.  
				Trademarks, domain names and such things are much more part of 
				the business eco-system. 
				But this is not the first time this question was raised.  
				It was raised in the Harjo case in which the 
				registrations were ultimately upheld.  Laches, or delays in bringing 
				claims in trademark actions, is very important.  The reason 
				is because you cannot wait and watch someone to build a 
				business and then raise a claim later.  In fairness, the 
				other people using the brand may not have intended the 
				consequence that is claimed (like
				
				Seinfeld), and a late claim destroys the value 
				that is the heart of other people's real financial lives.  Even if 
				the use if socially thoughtless, or thoughtlessly insensitive, 
				that is not the question: the question is why did the injured 
				party wait so long to raise an issue. 
				What is interesting in the case, is 
				that laches is applied differently in cases relating to 
				derogatory terms.  Remember, if the term is not derogatory 
				in the first place, then the defense of laches is immaterial.  
				A defense only is important if the pre-conditional claim is made 
				successfully.  | 
			 
			
				| 
				Did the claimants prove the derogatory nature of the brand. | 
				Yes.  For 
				disparagement claims, the law is to look to the group implicated and not to 
				society as a whole.  Therefore, it is not a survey of what 
				the general population thinks, but what a "substantive 
				composite" (not necessarily the majority) of the referenced 
				group thinks. | 
			 
			
				| 
				So what happens next. | 
				Presumably the 
				matter will be decided within the judicial system as before.  Importantly, there is a 
				lucid dissent by Administrative Judge Bergsman which addresses 
				flaws in the view of the evidence presented and the applicable 
				law; he also addresses the issue of re-litigating the question.  
				[Ed. Page 81 of the
				
				Opinion.] | 
			 
			
				| 
				  
				I want to thank you.  Is there anything 
				you want to add?
  | 
				I think 
				this is a fascinating case for legal and social reasons.  
				If we ask most people in America about any designations based upon 
				the color of person's skin, it immediately becomes the subject 
				of debate and offense. The 
				very interesting point is to play out the process if the 
				Redskins lose the case.  If that happens, the registrations 
				are cancelled.  However, the trademark rights are not 
				destroyed.  As I stated, the Redskins still have 
				unregistered trademarks.  These unregistered trademarks 
				still have the presumptive force of both legislative and 
				judicial power for enforcement. 
				So, let's say the registrations 
				are cancelled, and someone infringes on the intellectual 
				property brand.  The owners can sue in court for enforcement.  
				But, then, the practical question becomes how a jury or judge will 
				view the power of the brands that are claimed to be derogatory 
				and whether that is proper evidence in the infringement proceeding. 
				And, even if the Washington 
				Redskins win, ultimately, all in, this is a branding question 
				with significant social and political implications.  Even 
				with a win, the organization will appear to 
				be obdurate, socially incalcitrant, and socially insensitive.  
				 Accordingly, if the Washington 
				Redskins win again, they still have social and political market 
				issues; if they lose, it is even worse.  Therefore, either way, the Washington 
				Redskins have a very practical dilemma for which a staged and 
				controlled concession to a name change may now be the only way 
				to win the game.  
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				| 
				Thank you again. | 
				My pleasure.  
				Thank you.  | 
			 
			 
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